International Falls Daily Journal - Blog entry - Comments

As a side note I might as

Joespoon04 — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:55:40 -0500

As a side note I might as well add that those who have advocated strong security for America above all things certainly have my permission to invade the empty gas tanks of the future as well as barren food shelves, the depressed housing market and the hyperinflationary dollar.

fb56------my way of thinking

six-shooter — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:59:50 -0500

fb56------my way of thinking is that the people of IF and Kooch county have become so complacent that officials feel there really is no need to ask for public input. Over the years I have been to several zoning meetings and did make my opinion known. I read about other towns and that have spoken up and the towns have heard their voices and have had to make or change their ideas that they thought would fly thro. If the people do not start standing up and have their voice heard whether it be local,state or federal then they don't have any right to b---- about what goes on. Not saying this is the case in your blog. If government can sneak anything in under the radar believe me they will. One more thing to all VOTE!!!!

Thanks posters for raising

Laurel Beager — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:31:22 -0500

Thanks posters for raising this issue. It is time to do an update on the issue and we have staff preparing a news report on the status and future steps in the process.

And it just so happens that

Joespoon04 — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:04:01 -0500

And it just so happens that I'm back, for now. Good to see that the familiar names are still posting. And thank you, Thomas, for always bringing your brand of logic to a place populated by joespoons and roj2000s.

For this blog, however, I'm not exaggerating. I hear the death knell of America sounding with every bank buried.

Your point is well made.

Thomas L. Johnson — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:13:19 -0500

Your point is well made. Any change of this nature has to be communicated often and clearly. Everyone knpows what NIMBY is and how it functions -- the not-in-my-backyard thing works in this issue because Koochiching County is in all of our backyards and any change has the potential to have a downside for almost as many as it has an upside for. It's kind of like Disneyland -- everyone likes it except those people unfortunate enough to have to deal with the crowds every day of their lives. Good post.

I hope we can generate enough heat on this one to get into the analog DJ. Until it appears in print, it will just be real estate agents talking to guys like me. And I did enjoy talking with one of the local agents about this on Sunday.

You certainly have a right

fb56 — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:10:30 -0500

You certainly have a right to your opinion Thomas, but returning to my original post, why couldn't a little more publicity been given to the public input hearings so more opinions could have been heard?

Real estate always prices

Thomas L. Johnson — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:24:44 -0500

Real estate always prices some locals out of the market; that is why it is called a market. If every local who wants a plot of jackpine where he can build a deerstand buys one, then the countryside will be littered with small plots of land being poorly utilized.
Markets do need some controls to keep things from pure anarchy and I think that the two-acre rule with lake property is not intended to close the market to locals either. Just locals who can't afford or who don't place a high priority on lake property. I watched vacant lots and small lots on a number of islands and cahannels sit unclaimed all year. The locals aren't biting, especially on the lower end properties. By subdividing and subdividing, all you end up with are lower end properties. That is why the British, for instance, passed property on to the oldest son. To keep it from being split into miniscule units. As an oldest son, I find the law of primogeniture a great concept.
By the way, I am shocked that 2000 did not welcome Joe back to this piece of virtual real estate. Here we thought you had moved away and you seem to be communicating with the 21st century man.

I wasn't referring to lake

fb56 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:30:46 -0500

I wasn't referring to lake property but rural farming or recreational hunting property. I thought making the miniumum lot sizes at 20 or 40 acres would price locals out of the market.

How is Indian Education fair

miller_mourner — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:36:10 -0500

How is Indian Education fair to all involved? Think about it:

1. Why don't other minorities get special education?
2. Doesn't getting this special help make the minority look inferior?
3. Does this encourage unity and comity? How does seperating people do this?
4. Of course "Indians" have been wronged, but the past is the past and this country pays a lot for their mistake.
5. Ok, so it is to teach them about their culture? Why doesn't everyone else get culture education? There is a large number of Germans, Norweigans, Russians...?
6. Since when is it the public school system's job to teach a people their culture? This means everything from history to religion. Religious education has no place in a public school.

Please try not to lynch me.

So we are not talking 40

Thomas L. Johnson — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:41:37 -0500

So we are not talking 40 acres as the original poster said. When I read two acres of lake property, I have two reactions:
1) current reality is always grandfathered in, so current owners own what they own.
2) two acres does seem like a fair number although feet of shoreline -- typically 100 -- is a more meaningful measure. Many lake lots are irregularly shaped giving them acreage without frontage.
Before vilifying the rezoners, I would like to say that the scenario you bring up is part of the problem. As everyone can see, there is a irreversibility to lot divisions. In an anarchy, lot sizes will get smaller and smaller as people subdivide land into smaller pieces. Compare the original platting of Stop [Keyes] Island -- available on the internet http://www.titleminnesota.com/lakeplat.htm -- where I spend my vacation time and you see that many of the 4-7 acre plats have been subdivided until there are neighbors living on top of neighbors. Nobody ever buys two lots to increase their acreage, so we get into this cycle of ever smaller lots and ever increasing clutter.
The mistake the Koochiching group seems to be making, however, is failing to publicize the work of CR Consulting. When Itasca County did this sort of thing, they aggressively sought community input. As a former commission member in my community here [Plymouth], I will tell you that the failure to disseminate plans and have community meetings that are publicized and accessible is a bluprint for failure. That is why you are doing God's work on this one, Joespoon.

Put on your marching boots,

Joespoon04 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:47:39 -0500

Put on your marching boots, Thomas.

I spoke with two professionals in real estate and government this morning. The word is this:

- If you live on the lake, you must have two acres to build.

In other words, if you own three acres on the lake, you may only have one livable structure across the entirety of the property, and you CANNOT sell the extra acre as a buildable lot. (Some of us on the lake would like to sell our extra acre to help pay for cereal during retirement. Sorry if my cash needs impact the lake's aesthetics.)

I'm finding out more right now, and I suggest you do the same. Apparently, Lehtenin is trying to railroad this through by the first of January because he knows as well as anyone that no one shows up to the zoning meetings. I personally think that these government attitudes are alarming, and the occupiers of the bureaus have shown once and for all that they are calling for their replacement.

This needs to be big, front page news and it needs to be plastered everywhere because no one on the lake recognizes yet that the finger-snapping-instead-of-clapping, karma-referencing, hyper-enviromentalist coffee shop stalkers in berets and glassy eyes are trying to take over the lake. Our lake, your lake, my lake.

Go, go, go.

Well good then, I'll play

Agent 47 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:24:59 -0500

Well good then, I'll play nice.

We had a small party one night that may have been a tad bit noisy, but of course that was probably my fault for not regulating the idiot who thought it was a good idea to play DJ and keep turning up the dumb stereo. But it might also be pointed at the blame of a crowd of pre-teens who were out WAY passed curfew, even midnight, standing on the opposite street corner observing the party. They were making a lot of noise and being disruptive, even after I had requested they go somewhere else to loiter, which I'm sure didn't help the sleeping neighbors who were upset at the situation.

Naturally the law enforcement was called that night and they asked us to shut the soire down. But since that evening, the police have been sent to our door multiple times, for lack of reason.

We have a fire pit, so we like to sit out at it at night, throw around a story or two, have a hotdog, the usual. A couple of officers show up one night to tell us that someone was calling in noise complaints. But as he said, "I've driven by a few times already tonight and I haven't heard a peep or seen anything wrong here, so I have no reason to believe that you are actually disturbing anyone."

Which is true. And we live on a corner, with an empty house on either side of us and a church across the street. Literally nobody within the immediate noise vicinity can hear us. I know this because I've done walks during get-togethers to check how far the noise carries.

This leads me to believe that one of our neighbors may just be jealous or spiteful that a group of friends/roommates/peers are enjoying themselves while said person is sitting inside, alone, sheltered and miserable because they haven't the same experience. I'm not saying that's the case, but it seems like a strong possibility.

Sure we're youthful, but we're not totally irresponsible. Some of us were raised better than that.

I'm pretty sure that concludes my pointless rant, but I understand your side of things too. If you physically asked your neighbor to keep it down, and they negated your wish, well then that's disrespect to you and you should take action. But at the same time, look at it from their angle too, they are just living life. Maybe a noise fence is needed or something to keep the disturbances to a minimum?

If this is true -- and the

Thomas L. Johnson — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:19:55 -0500

If this is true -- and the initial report is so sketchy the way so many alarmist reports are -- the necessary thing is some intelligent discussion, probably on this site. Zoning is a very complex thing and lake properties are almost always zoned differently than farming properties, which is probably what the current discussion is about. In farm country, 40 acre laws preserve farming land. In urban areas, particularly those served by sewers and water lines, such zoning is never done. In my winter home, Plymouth, lot sizes are determined by something called the Metropolitan Urban Services Area. Lots outside with septic systems have to be larger than lots within the urban area. See how quickly this becomes boring?
Sound the alarms so we can start to get our facts straight. If the reality is as bad as the picture painted, we will be marching through the streets of International Falls. If there were as many actual conspiracies as there are conspiracy theorists in the northewr tier of this fine state, we would be in a fine mess.

I agree that something needs

ss84 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:53:30 -0500

I agree that something needs to be done about these intersections. Last fall I called up to the city to see if it was possible to have a stop sign put in on the intersection I live on. Previously there was a stop sign but so many people complained about having to stop there they removed it. So now the intersection consists of my house and I have two children, a day care that just recently opened up, and a hotel that has a lot of people coming in and out. I makes it incredibly scary seeing as people come off the highway and are hitting 45-50mph by the time they get to the intersection because it is a straight stretch from the highway to another busy street. When I called the city they said they were unable to just put in a stop sign there had to be some need for it. They said they would get some "children at play" signs put up but that never happened either.....I guess it will take some bad accidents or a child getting hit for them to see the need for it.....The stop sign was put in for a reason in the first place and I don't think it should have been removed due to drivers wanting to have a faster way to get across town.

The way I understand it, the

Joespoon04 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:44:53 -0500

The way I understand it, the California transplant Richard Lehtenin is behind the rezoning for some reason. And doesn't it affect the properties on the lake and prevent nearly every property owner there from subdividing in the future? Shouldn't there be some alarm about extremist environmental movements like this that run under the radar?