Editor’s note: In light of the recent financial failures and discussion by Congress of a bailout, The Journal posed the following question to a few people getting coffee Tuesday morning: Do you think the US government should bail out the stock market? Why?
LeeAnn Meer
At first I was not for the bailout at all, because it appeared that it was for the companies that made faulty decisions. I believed that if we bailout anyone it should be the people.
On the one hand our country is made up of companies that survive, and when they fail then others come up to take their place.
Since then I have heard more and feel that we need to do something. But how in the heck did we end up in this place?
Brita Anderson
No, I do not believe that the government should bail out the stock market. If we do bail them out then it will just drag this problem on longer than if the companies that caused this problem have to work it out themselves.
Sheila Johnson
I wish I had more information. Unfortunately, I don’t trust the folks that are liable to make this decision. I am afraid that the small group at the top of the pyramid are just fine and still going to make money and the masses, those of us earning under $70,000 a year are the ones that are going to be hurt.
I am scared and I don’t want to live that way. This impacts whether I can buy a car, a house, or pay my employees. The small business people in this area rely on lines of credit to make it through the winter months. If that credit is not available, then it is going to be a very hard winter for myself, my employees and my vendors. If that is because people at the top got fat without anybody paying attention to them that makes me angry. I don’t know how to participate in that discussion, and I don’t trust the information to know if we should do the bailout or not.
It breaks my heart not knowing how it got to this point. My family has been here for generations and I don’t think this is how it is supposed to be. If the intention is that the market can take care of itself, then it is unfortunate that people in the market grab their own ship. I understand the principles of trickle down, but it is not happening that way. It all stays on top while people on the bottom are laid off, have their pensions stolen, and lose their jobs overseas.
Andy Dougherty
I think the government should do the bailout. The government should try very soon to get another bill brought up to bail out all these companies.
Based on all I have learned about the issues, it might be a good thing for the future of the economy and to prevent this from happening again.
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Folks, we're going down....
Back to page topFolks, we're going down. America is dying. From $19 billion/day in Fed discount window lending to $188 billion/day inside of two weeks, PLUS $630 billion in Fed money infused all at once a couple of days ago, PLUS a $600+ billion defense budget just approved, PLUS Fannie and Freddie being socialized, PLUS immediate calls for lower interest rates, PLUS this specter of a $700 billion "bailout" looming over us, PLUS non-governmental inflation tracking at 13% earlier this summer (as compared to 4% at that time), all lead one to conclude ONE THING.
Buy your silver, buy gold if you can, because your dollar is worth far less than it once was. It has no choice but to continue its value's devaluation. If I could beat you in the head to make the point, I would.
Try APMEX, try Kitco, try Comex. Insulate yourself against inflation. Don't just lay down and die for nothing.
It's not often that you and...
Back to page topIt's not often that you and I agree about anything, but this time Joe you are right on. I also suggest buying foreign currencies esp. Euros.
Sorry, Joe. I agree that...
Back to page topSorry, Joe. I agree that our economic fundamentals are weak and that we are looking at a recession [although probably no depression.] Gold is backed by only one thing: the demand for it in the market. Despite the fact that it did crack $1,000 per ounce in recent history, it will probably slip back to its historical levels once the recession starts to break: those levels are in the range from $300 to 500 per ounce. Once gold goes down, it tends to stay down. For years on end.
Moving to the Euro right now would be even more counterintuitive as the Euro has also backed off from recent historic highs as the Europeans, whose economies are not as flexible as ours,find them as fundamentally flawed by the after-effects of the subprime mess as ours. And the rules of the EU don't allow them to use debt the way we do. Smart rules, actually, but not very flexible in a crisis.
The undeniably great thing about our country is the fact that we get to have a regime change every four years, essentially throwing da bums out. The further you get from the center, the less inflexible your system becomes.
So Joe, I'm staying with capitalism including my capital investments. Capitalism in a flexible two-party democracy is still the engine of the world economy. It periodically bends, but it doesn't break -- at least it hasn't in its first 215 years. In the history of the world, that is an incredible fact.
But if you prove to be right, I'll be the guy paddling a canoe over to your place looking for a bread crust. And you'll be able to laugh at my folly. But if you turn all your assets into gold, I'll probably find roj sitting out on your dock enjoying his new place on Rainy Lake. Not my idea of heaven either.
Man, Thomas, I couldn't...
Back to page topMan, Thomas, I couldn't disagree with you more.
The only way gold could possibly go down to the levels you're talking about would be if deflation took place. What we're seeing now is inflation, every mint and gold and silver dealer across the globe is seeing depleted stocks of physical gold and silver, from the Canadian mint (http://www.gata.org/node/6715) to Japan and England (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/bf8246aa-8f13-11dd-946c-0000779fd18c,Authorised=...) to Gold ETF's that are SOARING (http://www.mineweb.co.za/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page34?oid=63581&sn=Det...).
So, the demand for metals is there, inflation of the dollar is there, the Western financial model is broken, and GATA has well-sourced independent analyses concluding over and again that there has been a direct, intentional manipulation of gold and silver prices for many, many years and that's the reason why gold, for instance, isn't already over $2,000/ounce. Silver prices are an even more blatant manipulation.
There is the possibility, though, with the banks hoarding their money and making loans difficult, that there can be a cataclysmic event that will suddenly, irrevocably make necessary money unavailable to businesses that rely on it, which would more or less cause deflation overnight. In that case only, gold would stay where it is.
Regardless, EVERYONE needs to have a healthy supply of food in their pantries in case the October surprise happens to be a sudden shut-down of oil production in Texas. That would lead directly to martial law, unaffordable food prices, and would complete the last of Naomi Wolf's ten steps a fascist takeover follows. Nine are done, martial law is the tenth.
(www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc)
I looked at GATA and was...
Back to page topI looked at GATA and was impressed by one thing: they truly believe what they believe, but all single-issue lobbyists do. The gold industry and the gold standardists always appeal to the same thing: neuroses.
There are five things/traits that we are born with and no amount of argumentation, mine or yours, can change them: extraversion/introversion, openness to change/resistance to change, conscientiousness/laziness, neuroticism/positivity, agreeability/disagreeability. A Ron Paul, GATA, Joespoon orientation is probably born of some combination of neuroticsm and conscientiousness with a dose of disagreeableness thrown in. This is also the Chicken Little phenomenon. And Chicken Little is a good guy -- just neurotic and conscientious.
Having survived the crash of 2000, Y2K, the crash of 1987, the oil crisis of 1973, the calamitous year of 1968 -- none of which looked good going in and none of which looked as bad coming out, I am guilty of being overly positive in the face of "unavoidable calamity." I remember the friend who was amazed that I had not stored up food, water, gold and weapons before Y2K. I would be interested in knowing if you were this upset then, because most of us are living inside a series of personal traits that control us more than we control them. And they are fairly consistent.
The advice given by Hesse in Steppenwolf is this: "Du muss lachen lernen." That is bad advice; you can't tell someone they need to learn how to laugh. So, Joe, we are at an impasse. I trust that the millions of transactions on the market that set the price of gold at $834 today is a reflection of reality; you have to believe that I live in the matrix. Nice movie plot; lousy reality.
Hey Thomas, I saw a thing...
Back to page topHey Thomas,
I saw a thing today in the news. It was a study that got published in the journal Science. It said that conspiracy theories come from an attempt to erroneously see patterns in chaos as one feels weak when faced with a big, unknowable world.
That's fine; I have nothing wrong with the study. It helps to relegate the ever-increasing number of conspiracy theories again into the "nut" category, as it was intended to do.
However, would you say that the Gulf of Tonkin incident, exposed last year by the NSA to be a manufactured hoax to get us into Vietnam, was a legitimate conspiracy? Would you say that big tobacco's testimony regarding the safety of cigarettes was a legitimate conspiracy? Would you say that Enron, among the top ten best companies in America the year before it failed, was NOT a conspiracy created by shrewd accountants and the "smartest guys in the room"?
What would you say if I told you that the Federal Reserve was as federal as Federal Express, it came into being in the utmost secrecy in a place called Jekyll Island in 1913, and was formed by the richest individuals in America in order to control America's money supply? (I know you know that already, Thomas, but everyone else needs to buy the book, The Creature from Jekyll Island, or watch the following video about the creation of the Federal Reserve: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6507136891691870450)
You can imply that I'm crazy all you want, Thomas. A casual perusal of GATA does not disprove the years of evidence they've accumulated proving price fixing of gold and silver. Perhaps I'm a "nut," or perhaps I'm just one of many doctors in decades past who knew for a fact cigarettes cause cancer. Maybe I'm paranoid, or maybe I'm a sailor who witnessed no foreign aggression in the Gulf of Tonkin. Either I'm absolutely crazy, OR I've been tracking the nonsensical movements of gold and silver for a long time, have tried to take possession of COMEX silver to no avail, and concluded that GATA knows what they're talking about.
America is bankrupt, metals prices are artificially controlled, inflation is going through the roof, and people need to have food in their pantries in case Bush decides to suspend the elections and crown himself king. Crazier things have happened, but I think, in retrospect, it would be obvious that Bush wouldn't ever have had the intention of leaving office. He wants to keep his head, same as all of us.
And unlike his, mine functions quite well, thank you very much.
Not sure what all this...
Back to page topNot sure what all this conversation about "investments" is all about as it is my opinion that stocks, bonds, silver gold and euro's, as well as the gazillon other investments we might all argue about are valuable as arguments only so long as you have some money with which to make such an investment in the first place. In looking at the welfare of the investment community and the worlds tenuous state of affairs it would seem to me that none of the foregoing "investments" offer much in the way of heat value for any extended period of time nor do they make for any appreciable food value. Lastely, in order for the so called "investment" to be of any value, you must find somebody else with something to give you for your "investment".
On another note, I had lots of beans, carrots, rudabagas tomatos,peas and raspberries in my garden this year as well as some maple syrup, wild rice and jams. Now thats the best kind of investment I could ever have made. In my opinion, of course.
Yes Anton, in the end that's...
Back to page topYes Anton, in the end that's what will really be important. What does one have that will be of value in the time of need, and of course food supplies will always make that list. Other than that it the rest won't matter all that much.
My wife predicts the return to the bartering system sometime in the future.
Welcome back, Anton. I'm...
Back to page topWelcome back, Anton. I'm going to take Joe's side in this one, however. Although I don't agree with his conclusions -- buy golds or else -- I do agree with his focus. Your carrots and jam -- and I enjoyed that jam you gave me, thanks -- as essential as they are, cannot hold any value beyond their nutritional value. And they will not gain in value over time, particularly those beans, unless the infrastructure including the electrical grid continues to function.
What Congress voted on last week, and the topic of this blog, is the continuance of that infrastructure in a climate where a lot of people made a lot of bad decisions. It would be nice to imagine that the government could've solved the problem by giving us each a few packets of seeds, but we are no longer an agrarian barter--based society. Thank goodness.
So while Joe is turning his assets into gold, and you seem to be arguing for biomass, I'm going to be the guy who puts several hundred dollars a month into the markets. I still believe that our economic engine has the ability to create wealth and it will start functioning better once we get the current group of wizards out of the engine room.
Because if we turn into an agrarian, barter-based economy, Anton, you are going to have to harvest a whole lot of beaver pelts to get back to your favorite Gasthaus in Nuremberg anytime soon. And International Falls will not be the best place in the world to live -- rutabaga season is just too short.
By the way, guys, you know...
Back to page topBy the way, guys, you know how I had linked above to a lecture Naomi Wolf gave about the ten steps any would-be despot takes to take control of a country, and how we have every single one in place except the last, which is martial law?
Well, that's in the works as we speak. We've now got a battle hardened brigade being deployed alongside police forces domestically:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/03/army.unit/index.html
I'm serious; I don't think Bush is going to leave. Whether it's a fake terror attack, bird flu, an economic Depression, a nuke at Houston refineries, a tied electoral college result, or a contested election that kicks the decision to the Supreme Court again, I think Bush will stay. Doesn't he HAVE TO stay? Would he and Cheney so willingly give up the office and go into the hands of a world who wants them tried and hanged?
I don't think so. My bet's on martial law and no elections.
How many standard deviations...
Back to page topHow many standard deviations away from normal does one have to become before he actually believes that a president of the USA could even consider "taking over." It's plausible as a movie plot or as a Nazi strategy, but even a crackpot like Naomi Wolf has to recognize that the power in our system is derived from the system, the balance of three sources of power and not from the executive branch. The fact is, the world is not waiting to try and hang this incompetent duo; it is just waiting to try to forget them and move on.
The more logical scenario sees the new Treasury people moving into the administration before Obama's inauguration so that the Paulsen and Cox crew can move back into private life, where they can get wealthy and forgotten.
Thomas, There used to be a...
Back to page topThomas,
There used to be a balance of power between the three branches, but the executive has assumed broad powers that people have gotten used to and assumed are normal. For instance, Karl Rove was charged with contempt for not shoving up at a House Judiciary Committee in July, but when a few noble citizens saw him and attempted a citizens arrest, they themselves got arrested and Rove walked free, even though a normal course of justice would see Rove in jail or in court somewhere. Meanwhile, the executive has either lied to the American people so often or outright refused to answer their questions, that the famed Vincent Bugliosi (the prosecutor of Charles Manson), released a bestselling book based upon his ongoing research into the lies that got us into Iraq. It's called, "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" and it can be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/Prosecution-George-W-Bush-Murder/dp/159315481X
A lot of us remember what the rule of law was like before "the gloves came off" after 9/11. Back then, in the good old days, we had a 4th Amendment that prevented unlawful searches and seizures. The phone and telecom companies can now listen to your phone and my phone without warrants or fear of retribution, the FBI can execute searches based on whims, and disgustingly flawed digital databases can be pulled out after the fact and touted as a rationale for executing a search or seizure. Meanwhile, over a million American citizens (journalists, anti-war protestors, children, etc.) are on a "no-fly list," the Department of Homeland Security is a monstrous waste of taxpayer dollars and has significantly diminished the liberties and dignity of the American people.
Lots of journalists who covered the protests at the DNC and RNC were arrested and charged with felonies. That's a 1st Amendment violation. Thanks to the Supreme court, the 2nd Amendment now has a 150+ page addendum declaring what kind of guns can be owned by whom, who can issue permits for those guns, and what the downrange delivery of those weapons can be. We've now got battle-hardened troops alongside domestic police forces, which is a direct violation of Posse Comitatus. The police state has grown by leaps and bounds because of this Administration, America has been bankrupted by this Administration, America's reputation has been irrevocably ruined by this Administration, illegal wars against the emotion of fear have been declared by this Administration, and the American people pound their chests and roar whenever given a command to start hating.
A lot of people in the country and the world consider Bush not just incompetent or stupid. A lot of people consider him an outright traitor to both the constitution and human decency. What this administration has done has been to declare war on the desire for freedom in the souls of men. This is not a jokey, ha-ha kind of elitist disdain for some dumb shmuck who fell into the Presidency and made some mistakes. Lots of sensible people are seeking to get this Administration prosecuted for TREASON, FRAUD, EMBEZZLEMENT, SUPPRESSION of documents, BLACKMAIL, TORTURE, MURDER, and CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
And it's not even a leftist argument; I'm not a leftist; I have such disdain for people so terrified of shadows they readily and eagerly give up their liberty for "security." This is a Constitutional argument. The Administration has committed TREASON against the documents that made this country great for over 200 years.
You think I'm joking? These people should be tried for their crimes. And when found guilty, they should be get the harshest sentence that conviction entails. I cannot abide a Nazi. And Bush, Cheney, et al have certainly proven themselves to be that. They're TRAITORS to the Republic.
Period.
And on the issue of...
Back to page topAnd on the issue of government now allowed into the privacy of the people in ways we've NEVER seen before, so many smug American morons say, "Well, what are you hiding?"
In response to those people, I just want to ask them what their address is, the names and ages of their kids, their physical descriptions, and what time those children get home from school.
Don't want to answer me about private stuff like that? You know what I'd say if I were government and a mindless American drone like them?
"WHAT ARE YOU HIDING?!!!"
Privacy is privacy. I don't trust government with my information just as I don't trust a stranger with my kids, for no other reason than that it's none of their business. And everyone knows that the chances of corruption and immorality in government is the same as in the populace at large.
Anton------you make total...
Back to page topAnton------you make total sense cuz your using common sense. You don't need a Teflon tongue to make your point. To survive you must know how to survive. You can't eat gold or a sweet portfolio. I'm thinking about putting in a root cellar and we keep reloading the shells. Best to ya man.
Amen to Anton, In light on...
Back to page topAmen to Anton,
In light on the current state of affairs, the economic system that provided a basis for our investment in the stock market is "no longer" the driving force for market predictions. We used to view production, quality, employer/employee loyalty, profitability as methods to determine which stock investments were to be of value. Not today....this market is all smoke and mirrors in regard to values....we are going back to the basics...I feel sorry for those retirees that are banking on the 401k vs annuities for retirement planning.
On a few things we agree,...
Back to page topOn a few things we agree, JS, and privacy is definitely one of those things. Without a doubt, the first six years of the republican majority resulted in a curtailment of personal privacy. We are reminded of that everytime we fly or even when we cross the border to go to Fort Frances. The Patriot Act was an attempt to close down the openness that is so essential to a free people.
My problem with the people you are sending us to on this quest is that many of them are as closed down. This guy, Griffin, for instance, is a pure ideologue. There are only two types of systems, open or closed. Closed systems take in nothing from the environment and generally fail to respond correctly to change. Cults are like that; so are ideologues.
The problem with the Bush group was not necessarily that they were evil. It was that they closed down, refusing to admit information from the environment in areas like WMD's, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib . . . Bush, as a man of strong conviction but little or no curiosity, had no problems defining himself as the Decider. Just like David Koresh or your Griffin fellow. Richard Nixon was like that in his wire taps, office break-ins, wholesale arrests or protestors. Fortunately, we get to change regimes because we are fundamentally an open society, even when despots try to close us down. My fundamental problem with people who assume that there are vast right wing or left wing or masonic or jewish or banker's conspiracies is that they imagine that their truth is necessarily the truth. Conspiracies don't do that well in an open society because someone like Seymour Hersh will write about the Tonkin Gulf hoax or the CIA murder of Allende or Abu Ghraib and the cat is out of the bag. And that, my friend, is where the cat should be -- out of the bag.
Having no money, as in...
Back to page topHaving no money, as in broke, and living in a shack built in 1904, I feel I have some expierence in talking about money matters, even those money matters on a national level.
The first thing I would have to say is the 700 billion dollar, whatever it is to be called this day, is not and was not and never will be a bail out for anybody nor is it any stimulus package of any kind. The current "regime" thinks that all we have to do is generate cash flow, even if that cash flow actually doesn't do any thing of a practical sense and thats all that is required to move our brand of captalism along.
Secondly the last 700 billion dollars has not gone any where the second 700 billion is going, into the pockets of somebody who is clever enough to get it.
Thirdly,this is going to get a lot more worse then I think you can imagine. Even to the point of doing away with the dollar and using the scrip the government has already printed.